Subject: Re: [boost] [boost.process] 0.6 Alpha
From: Klemens Morgenstern (klemens.morgenstern_at_[hidden])
Date: 2016-06-17 05:45:34
Am 17.06.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Damien Buhl:
> On 16/06/2016 18:02, Klemens Morgenstern wrote:
>>> Hi Klemens,
>>>
>>> We have been using the Boost.Process state from Boris Schäling for more
>>> than 3 year in productive use on linux embedded devices, and one thing
>>> that we had to change is to use vfork instead of the fork function.
>>>
>>> The problem with the fork + execve is that it produce a RAM copy of the
>>> process page, while vfork+execve just don't. And when the parent process
>>> launching child is pretty big, imagine a jvm using some jni library
>>> using Boost.Process... it duplicates the whole Jvm im RAM to then
>>> deallocate all at the moment of execve. vfork doesn't have this issue on
>>> linux.
>>>
>>> Without the use of vfork, you end up in situations where you get the
>>> following error: `boost::process::detail::posix_start: fork(2) failed:
>>> Cannot allocate memory`
>>>
>>> I think changing from fork to vfork is not much and brings alot of
>>> advantages, but one must be aware that at_fork handler won't be called.
>>> But this is not important as fork is used to do execve afterwards in
>>> Boost.Process.
>> Hi Damien,
>>
>> I appreciate your problem, but I am not sure it's that easy. There's
>> on major problem: vfork is removed from the posix standard as of
>> POSIX.1-2008. And I'm trying to conform to posix, not linux.
>>
>> So I guess, I wouldn´t use vfork as default, but it might be possible
>> to add a property, which will cause the library to use that. I.e. you
>> write:
>>
>> boost::process::child c("java.exe", "overhead.jar",
>> boost::process::posix::use_vfork);
>>
>> But I'd need to be able to check if vfork is available, so I can
>> disable the property if not.
>>
>> Would that be sufficient for your problem?
> Naturally if the code still compiles on windows even though I'm using
> boost::process::posix::use_vfork(_if_possible) then yes for me all will
> be fine.
> But on the other hand from a library design point of view, shouldn't the
> library have the best smart default in terms of performance and overhead
> on a given platform ? Instead of having a flag telling : please do it
> the same but efficiently ? Because on linux vfork is nothing but
> obsoleted and for a scenario of using execve looks better to me.
Again: obsolete and now removed in the posix-standard and that's what I
ought to go with. Please note, that I'm trying to provide two platforms:
Posix & Windows. Not Linux & Windows. Thereby I want to provide the most
common way for both platforms; and though I really appreciate your
scenario, I would not consider it the common way.
I think you underestimate the dangers of vfork; because you know, two
processes sharing memory (including the stack!) can be rather fun.
There's a reason it was removed and so it will be optional in
boost.process.
It would be a platform extension, so no, this would NOT compile with
windows. I thought about turning the platform extensions into NOPs ,
but that's just too weird - especially since things like signal(SIGCHLD,
...) are also provided. There you should rather use the preprocessor and
put an #ifdef there - then it's obvious what you're doing. Also I'd need
a #define to know whether vfork is available, that I would probably
provide. So you could then write something like that:
child c("ls"
#if defined(BOOST_POSIX_HAS_VFORK)
, posix::use_vfork
#endif
);
I guess I can check that via 'CLONE_VFORK'.
>> On 17/06/2016 01:21, Gavin Lambert wrote:
>>> Is this specifically for NOMMU linux?
>>>
>>> MMU architectures shouldn't have this issue, as fork does a
>>> shared-memory-copy-on-write mapping so that the pages aren't actually
>>> duplicated unless written to, and the subsequent exec* unmaps the
>>> pages so this never happens (other than a bit of stack).
>>>
>>> NOMMU architectures don't support those kinds of mappings, so have to
>>> be rewritten to use vfork instead (which is generally unsafe unless
>>> immediately followed by exec*, unless you know what you're doing).
>>>
>>> Although the last time that I played with NOMMU, fork used to just
>>> fail; perhaps it's been changed to make copies of all the pages
>>> instead? If so, that would indeed be problematic for large parent
>>> processes.
> Hi Gavin ;)
>
> It's with an MMU but the parent process on this product is a
> memory-hungry-monster-jvm and the fork fails.
It seems a bit strange to me, that you would use boost.process here,
instead of - you know - java.io.process. But I guess you want
performance and your java-developers want a job, so JNI is the way to go?
> I can be wrong, and it looks like you know more from what's happening
> there, but as long as I can remember the issue arose due to virtual
> memory commit, because fork on linux even though is optimized to not
> copy the whole process pages but to do copy-on-write, still needs to
> commit virtual memory, and overcommitment is not always allowed, or by
> default is heuristically allowed.
That's probably right, because elsewise you'd get an error in the forked
process and there would be no way of getting to know it.